Arek Dvornechuck: Hello branding experts! Arek here at Ebaqdesign and my guest today is Peter Wilken. And Peter is a branding expert with over 30 years of experience working with some of the world's most prestigious brands including brands like Coca Cola, BMW, Disney, Pepsi, IBM, McDonald's, shell and many more. So Peter, worked at some of the legendary advertising agencies like Ogilvy & Mother, Leo Burnett, BBDO and then he co-founded The Brand Company under which he developed his brand building process called Brand Centered Management. And now Peter is based in Vancouver and he runs his company, Dolphin Brand Strategy. So Peter describes his brand building process in his new book Dim Sum Strategy—Bite sized tools to build stronger brands. So this is the book we are going to talk about today. And I really wanted to have Peter on our podcast today to share with us some of his tools and techniques on how to build stronger brands. Peter, thank you so much for taking time to join our show.
Peter Wilken: My pleasure. It's my pleasure to be here, thanks for finding me and connecting.
1. What is a brand?
Arek Dvornechuck: Thank you. So in your book, you talk about your process, right and the tools that you use and I really like how you give us a lot of different tools and techniques and you organize it in a way that makes it easy to understand. So we're gonna talk about the process in a second. But I just wanted to start with what a brand is and how you define a brand because different people, so whether it is for you know, entrepreneurs or CEOs, interested in brand building or for creative professionals, we might define brands differently. So we might understand what a brand is in kind of different ways. So some people may think that you know brand is just a [Inaudible word at 02:05] is much more than that, right? So in your book you talk about brand being a promise quite a lot and brand building as managing people perceptions. So can you just elaborate on that?
Peter Wilken: Yeah, sure. It's always a kind of starting question, what is a brand and I've heard many good definitions. Mine is that it's perception in the mind. It's a territory that you can own and ring-fence and define that creates an expectation of an experience. A brand many people seem to refer to as a tangible object you can touch but it's not. It's a perceptual thing that exists in the mind and that's why marketing is such a powerful tool because you can change perceptions with the right message very, very quickly and that is why there's such a key role for marketers to play and you also mentioned that alluded to the difference between branding and brand building and I find that, that definition needs clarification all while, I mean, I'm constantly saying come up with how you will do a branding project and I said, you mean brand building project and not to do branding down. But when we first started up with a brand company, myself and two colleagues in Hong Kong, this was one of the founding premises that you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars were being spent on what we called the superficial packaging of the brand and not to do it down. It's super important, you are a design guy, you know that. But the superficial packaging would have been like things like the visual identity even the advertising that I'd spent 25 years of my career doing the communication of it and not the substance of the experience that you were actually delivering which is more impactful in terms of determining this territory in the mind that I was talking about the perception. So that's the difference between branding and brand building. Brand building is identifying, articulating and then building this territory in the mind which is your brand and it's something that needs constant management, constant nurturing, constant checking, relative to what your competitors are doing and to what your consumers and your customers are interpreting. So yeah, that's it.
Arek Dvornechuck: Alright. Some of the takeaways would be that you know, we spent too much time too much attention is paid to you know, superficial packaging and identity design but it's all about, you know, defining the brand first and thinking about how we want to position that brand in the minds of our customers, right?
Peter Wilken: I wanted to undermine that should say, I'm not saying packaging and design and identity and advertising is not important. It's hugely important but it's there to reinforce your positioning once you've established that. Too often you know we get called in to say, you know, where's the problem? What can you do? I think, oh, we need to rebrand and what by that they mean we need to refresh our logo but In fact it doesn't take much digging at all to find that their strategic positioning, you know, what it is that they do and for whom and why is the thing that needs attention, not their logo. So you need to go much, much deeper than that but because it's tangible and because they can see that that's where their money is going and there's something you can talk about around, I understand why. It tends to always get translated into, you know, let's rebrand, let's change our identity. I mean, I don't mean to insult people out there, our clients and our customers are smart enough to know that they need to go deeper than that but not necessarily. They are familiar with it with how we express it and how we do it. So I listened to one of your earlier podcast guests and he was quite right about talking about building a blueprint for the brand. In fact, that's what I've put in the book as well. You know, having a blueprint, a strategic blueprint to map out what it is that you want to do with your brand and how you build it and construct it in a way that you would like an architect would have building and so that's a large part of what the book is about. It’s helping you define your own step wise blueprint. But I also wanted to do I also do it in a bite sized way. That's why it's called kind of Dim Sum strategy so that you can cherry pick things and pick up useful bits within 10 minutes and I know that that's the you know, the kind of the [Inaudible word at 06:34] millennial way is and give it to me really fast and quick and so that I can get something useful out of it and if I'm interested, I'll dig a little deeper. So that's the concept.
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah and I think the book is fantastic. You know and I think it's easy to read. First of all, it's easy to read, it's easy to understand, you don't use kind of like industry jargon or anything like that. So for our listeners, for you guys whether you are creative professional or entrepreneur, you run a big company or just a small start a startup, you're gonna find something interesting because Peter gives you a lot of different tools and techniques and specific examples of big brands. So we can all understand because we know these bands and we can relate and we can understand the concept behind them. So yeah, so let's talk about your process now. Since we know how you define a brand, how we should define a brand, you know, a brand is a promise and I like also wanted to mention, like in the introduction you talk about it just to give our listeners an example perhaps right, so you'll give this example if we think of car brands and for example, if you say Volvo, what do you think about? What is the one word that comes to your mind? Most of the people would say safety, right? When it comes to BMW, they would say performance, Toyota; reliability and so on. So that's referring to what you were talking about, it's about building that perception and the promise to customers is way beyond just identity and design, right?
Peter Wilken: Yeah, I mean that's great. It's great that you've remembered those things, that's what I mean about owning a territory and a positioning. I mean, the Volvo own safety you can hardly take it away from them now and even when they try and screw it up as they did you know in the early 20s when they've kind of researched people said you know, you're building boxy cars and they don't look as good as your competitors Mercedes and BMW and Jaguar and so they kind of redesigned their cars in a more stylish way, typically converging to the norm as most cars do now and came out and said, Look, look at us now we're stylish and people say no, you're not, you are Volvo your safety and they're quite rightly now, that stylish is something that is not a negative. Now, it's not a reason for not buying a Volvo but the reason you buy Volvo is still for safety and they still pride themselves in their amazing safety standards when the cars way beyond airbags now it's all about lane assists, alerts and automatic stopping systems and things like that which they are pioneering again, so they know their place and they do it extremely well.
Arek Dvornechuck: Now, we are going to take a quick break here but we'll be right back. Listen, my mission is to help people build and design iconic brands. So whether you're a business leader who wants to become more intentional with branding and all of its aspects or you're a creative professional who wants to attract powerful clients and surely be able to help them with branding then you need to start with a discovery session in order to develop a strategy that will inform all your creative work and everything that you need. In order to learn how to do that you can find in my online courses at ebaqdesign.com/shopwhat I share with you my worksheets, case studies, video tutorials and other additional resources to help you feel safe and strong about your process. Now, let's get back to our interview. So now let's talk about the process. So basically, you call your process brand centered management, right? And so you divide your process into four steps, just for you guys to give you like a quick overview and so we are going to talk about a bit about each step. So it's discovery, definition, direction and delivery. So starting with discovery, so here in this tab, we just want to discover your brand, we just want to learn about our brand and uncover current perception of that brand in the environment that operates in the challenges we face the opportunities we have. So can you just walk us through this first step of your process and perhaps talk a bit more about some of the tools that we can use to do the discovery?
Peter Wilken: Yeah, I'll do that, Arek and it might be useful for your listeners to understand some of the genesis of how we got behind brand center management because in the end I mean, this was over 20 years ago, my colleagues and I set this up then and in hindsight, you know, we realize we're probably one of the first specialists brand consultants, consultancies out there ever and what in fact we were doing was more change management through the brand than anything else and brand centered management's sounds like what the promise was, it was putting the brand at the center of your business and the argument went something like this which is, you know, if your brand is what you want to stand for in your most valuable customers minds in the future, in a positive way, why wouldn't you want to be able to articulate that and make that central to everything that your organization does first, primarily and then says, through its communications? And so your brand and the principal part of your brand is what is your promise? What is your overarching commitment to your customers that you're going to deliver for them, that's gonna deliver a benefit? What is the benefit that that promise delivers? How you're going to go about doing it the spirit or the culture the way in which you're going to do it? And most importantly, why your role your raison [Inaudible word at 12:51] you know, way before [Inaudible word at 12:52] was saying and marketing it brilliantly. It was that so you know what's your reason existing and then you can tie it in there are a few other things like icons, actual assets that you own, that can invoke the whole and but you put these all together in your little velvet bag with its golden thread and you've got what comes and cemented as a DNA. Anyway, so that was how we started off doing that. And once you define what your DNA is, it can help drive your organizational strategy, how you communicate internally with your people, the processes and systems that enable or hinder you to be able to deliver the products and services that deliver the experiences, that drive the external perceptions and external perceptions ultimately matter what people think it is your brand which is what you're trying to articulate. So it's a circular process called brands data management and we found the easier way of being able to walk people through the process was as you were rightly saying, the four D’s that's how we label something that sticks; discovery, definition, direction and delivery and discovery is basically asking the question, how do people currently perceive our brand? And you ask a similar set? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Arek Dvornechuck: Show you guys what you were talking about this simple process, right?
Peter Wilken: Perfect. Thank you. And I can see you've marked it up you've really done your homework. I'm impressed. Eric, you your clients must be a happy clients because you clearly do your homework.
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah I just highlight the best part so I can just come back and you know and start implementing those new things that I learned, right.
Peter Wilken: That's great. So discovery, typically we could find that this process by the way, works just as big for the huge brands. We did. I did this for Shangri La global positioning. We did it for AIG, did it for Sankai properties, the biggest property development company in the world as I do for you know, a small local YouTube, you know, company here, you know, Blue Moon guys out of Vancouver, you know, 12 people still doing nice three or 4 million turnover selling men's haircare products online and the principles remain the same whether you University, an engineering company, a small startup or well established organization, these principles work and so anyway back to the discovery, the first phase, we found that you can get an awful long way without having to do hugely expensive or time consuming work by doing structured qualitative interviews with the stakeholders closest to the brand and those stakeholders are typically are senior people or within the organization, but also people I would call it the coalface of whatever it is you're delivering and some key customers as well and, you know, we also used to even a question, some friendly competition to ensure that we were getting a check and balance. But the qualitative side of it helps you do that very quickly, you can ask a set of well-structured questions, and we've honed our questions after many years of research into no more than nine or 10 questions that can get you a long way and they start off general and go specific. So it would be kind of things like when I say your brand name, you know, ebaq design, whatever it is, what springs to mind? Right? Because that's basically the real world, you know, marketers would like you to get straight into your little category and then once you're there in your mind, you can start referencing things but if you're not there, that's actually the real world. People aren't thinking about event design, sorry, until, you know, we mentioned it or we're talking about it, they don't think about dolphin brand strategy, they don't think about Dim Sum strategy until we're talking about it. So you've got to be aware, you've got to be salient and when you are, what is it that they're taking out and typically, in this very, very complex world, they won't have more than two or three associations and they may be what you want them to be or they may not be what you want them to be but that's why we start from general to specific, and then you can probe it a little bit and then you can go through the classic, you know, what are your perceived strengths of the brand? What are the things that are challenging? What's the competitive frame? You know, what are the dynamics within the category? What's happening? What's not happening? Are they following suit? You know, what do you think the brand is trying to promise you so that you actually ask questions that come into the next stage which is about your DNA? What do you think? What benefits are you looking for from this? Is it delivering? How are they going about doing it? What's the culture, you know, and typically that's often how brands differentiate [Inaudible word at 17:55] was deliver very similar things. Now, whether you're DHL or UPS, you know, you get your package on the door, but the perception of how you do it differently whether or not you're you've got friendly delivery guys or recognizable yellow van or what, those are the kinds of things that you differentiate at this level and so all of those are bought into the mix and then you ask open ended questions like What would you do to change things to improve which leads you down a directional path. So you can do that within a well-structured interview, and you don't need too many, you know, 15, 20, 25, interviews and patterns emerge very quickly and of course, you do your homework, you do your quantitative analytical research as well and you employ your customers often within their own team, they know their businesses really well. So you go through a discipline of quantifying it and you match that with your qualitative in order to be able to identify key opportunities for the brand. So that's the discovery section in two minutes quickly.
Arek Dvornechuck: Yes. Sorry. So I just wanted to sum it all upfor our listeners, before we go to the the next step. So this cover is all about preparation for developing strategy, right? So it's all about collecting that data and then analyzing and enjoying some insights. So you know about your company, your customers, the current trends and the competition and things like that. So basically as you mentioned, is all about, you know interviewing the key stakeholders, right? And then also doing additional research, competitive review and things like that. It is all about asking the right questions, some of those questions you guys can find on page 44 here where Peter talks about specific questions that you can use to run those interviews. So yeah, so just to sum up, it's all about processing that raw data and drawing insights right before we move to the next step which is definition and in this step this is actually your workshop, right? Your brand DNA workshop that you run with your clients. So can you just walk us through this step?
Peter Wilken: Sure and so yeah, the definition stage is basically your DNA, your brand DNA, we call it a DNA because it's like, its genetic counterpart. It is a template for replicating consistent desired experiences we will brand and like biological DNA, every single one is unique. So your brand is unique. It's like a thumbprint, which is why the thumbprint on the front of the book. DNA’s and people are complex. Yeah. Thanks for that but also we know we change, we change moods, we have to work in different complex environments, with different types of people, different challenges. But we still have easily identifiable definable characteristics and that's what your DNA of your organization and your brand is attempting to do and so there are basically, you know, four or five key components of your DNA and we mentioned them before the you know the first one would be your role, why do you exist? What's your raison d'etre? It's the why question and it's probably the most difficult to answer. So we save it for last in the process. We start with a promise and your benefit and the promise is what's your overarching commitment to your key customers, stakeholders? So it begs the question, also saying, who are our key stakeholders? And it forces you into some question of saying, what's the real bullseye? When we boil this down, we all know that we've got multiple customer segments. And the book later on goes into telling you how you can sort that out into practical sense. We call it practical segmentation, so that you don't kind of try and get into the minutiae of individualizing everything that's just not realistic but you can focus on the key four or five current target segments that are going to drive your business and so back to the promise, what's your overarching commitment to them that you promise to deliver? Having delivered that against that promise what benefit do they get from you delivering your promise? What does it mean to them? And then we talk about the what we call the spirit, or the culture, which is how you go about doing that, the way in which you do it. So you know, you could deliver your promise in a very Germanic efficient, technological, cold but ultimately reliable way or you could be extremely, you know, soft and interpersonal and empathetic and more emotional in your input within the same category, but you could have very, very different approaches and fields, for example. So, when you start tying those elements all together, there's an aspect of the why, which we say is what you believe as well, that can bring that out and we also talk about icons of things that evoke an image of the whole so you know, an icon, is sometimes it's a logo, but sometimes it's not a logo so you know, Michael Jackson's glittery glove would evoke the image of the whole Michael Jackson and you would get into thriller and all his things like that just by looking at it you know, glittery you know, silver glove, you know, the Rolling Stones, we've got the big fat, you know, red lips which almost become iconic with them now, when you see that those lips, the Rolling Stones [Inaudible word at 24:01] that, Burnett's, you know, we had red apples, anyone in the ad industry would know, Red Apple was [Inaudible word at 24:09] and black pencils and reaching for the stars and things like that. Over the years it was Red Sox and I mean, I'm just taking small examples within organizations, but they're practical for the clients. So that's the definition phase and then the important thing about this, Arik is that the DNA development workshop is a shared process. So you know, we facilitate it but the owners are the brand owners, and they use language that they can see that has come out of the discovery report because the discovery report asked questions about the components of the DNA, why is it that you exist? What were you promising? What benefit are you delivering? How are you different to competitors? You know, how you're going about delivering it? Those kind of things. Where are you going to take it in the future? So you've got Common Ground that people can recognize and share and it deals with some difficult questions but it shnes the opportunity for the brand in the future as well. So you've got all of that and people then, you know go and try and craft this in language, a DNA goes way beyond just language but it starts with the written word and then you bring it to life in other ways in music and visuals and stuff like that but it's very difficult to craft by committee wordsmith as you know, if you're a writer, you have to kind of take it away individually and then craft it and then as I say tire kick it but it's done as a group collectively, people see that it's a difficult process. They see the whole process of strategy unfolding, they have to make choices between what they want wish to say, they can't be all things to all men that you end up being nothing to everybody. So you really focus it and the whole idea is to really get a single mind as focused as possible. And when you've got that, it's like a shining light or a beacon a lighthouse that says, you know, this is us, always and consistently, and you know that you're getting somewhere after you come back after two or three weeks of doing this session and you individually then go around and participants and say, can we improve it? Can we tweak it here, any words that are superfluous? And that we can get rid of anything that we're missing that we have to add? But you keep it really tight and before or not you know you can't take anything away? Because they say, no, this is perfect, this is us, leave it with us and then you start living it, you start bringing it to life and that's the direction phase.
Peter Wilken: The direction phase is what part how are we going to go and take this board and typically then you know, I give you some tools in the book again, there are different ways in which you can set up a strategic framework as we say, I mean, typically, you know I use the four pillar path and in which basically says, boil it down to a rule of three, if you focus on three or four things, big things you can get those done and you can remember them, if you start getting into long lists of more than that they don't get done and that's basically what the four pillar path and it is, it says, What's your foundation that you're building on your core values, you know, your key your positioning your DNA, and then the four pillars are how you actually, you know build what you're trying to do. So what are the key things that you're gonna do? You know, you're gonna do this through Marketing and Communications, or you're going to do this by, you know, delivering an incredibly unique product experience. So you're gonna do this by having the most efficient operating systems, when there's so many other things to focus on, you're gonna do this by being the environment, the leader in the world or whatever and then ultimately you know, the roof of the goals that you're aiming to achieve but also how you're perceived your overall communication. So in the direction phase, I help, say, let's define your strategic framework. Here's the tool in which you can use it to make some choices easier, strategy is only choice, it’s what you choose to do as what you choose not to do. So the framework is a tool for making that choice decision easier for you when it's complex and so once you've simplified it, you add detail onto it as well. So within each of the pillars you will have I think, two or three strategic priorities and what are the things that you have to do to achieve the goals of that strategic pillar. So I like the rule of three. I don't know why it just seems to be appearing in nature the whole time, it's the minimum number of legs on a stool that you can have to have a stable platform, you know four is okay, as well, you can argue that it's more stable but you start getting more than that, you start losing focus and every organization doesn't matter whether you're GE or a tiny startup, there are limits to your resources in terms of what you can do. So, focus on three or four things and then… Yes? Sorry.
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah. So I just wanted to wrap up for our listeners. So, you jumped from definition. So, just going back a little bit. So, definition is about running this workshop with key stakeholders and basically a brand consultants role here is to clear the fog as you as you mentioned and provide this clarity and focus and context right and then the next step as he started talking about his direction, so where do we want to go? So we want to set the course for the organization to build a brand, right so and as you mentioned already know and of course we cannot predict everything but we want to stay on track. We may change the course of our journey. But it's more like a compass. And I like this analogy given in your book. So we are just for example, we may we are going north, we know that we are going north, north south. So it also refers to what you just said, you know, it's all about making decisions, what to do and what we choose not to do as well. Right? So and, of course, you present us with a lot of tools here, the strategic rather, Pantheon [Inaudible word at 30:29] Pantheon and impact urgency metrics that help us prioritize different tasks and goals and things like that. Okay, so the last step is delivery, right? So it's about actually executing against our plan that we just develop in those previous three steps, right. So this is about creating productive working relationships with other companies, communities, consultants, specialists and also here you present us with a lot of different tools and how to execute our strategic plan that we've developed. Right, so and I really like the to the delivery Donna which is really, it illustrates nicely, it's easy to like remember, I once I saw that, I just think it's brilliant. So can you talk to us maybe about this tool and about this a little bit so we can address them.
Peter Wilken: So once you've got your DNA, that's your lighthouse as it is, that's your rock, you know, you this is you and you shine your light and say that this is what we stand for. This is who we are, you know, if we're right for you, and you're interested in who, what we do and what we stand for, you'll come to us, you know, like moths to a bright light and you've got your direction. Now you know what you're going to do A, B, C and D and which order and how you're going to do it. The delivery is executing that simultaneously through multiple channels, so that you can do many things quickly and this is accelerating it and typically if you're especially if you're a smaller and medium sized enterprise, you can't do it all, you definitely need help and you need to what I call divide and conquer even within your organization to be able to execute it. So the delivery donor as a simple visual aid and tool, a reminder to be able to say, yeah, thank you, [Inaudible at 32:44-32:45] go about it. It's basically if people are familiar with old game, Trivial Pursuit, it looks like one of those round things that you put six cheeses in and literally you can have the doughnut and the top half is the things that you do. So your products and services and your systems and you're actually delivering against tangible things that you can deliver against those things that you're focusing on and yeah and the bottom half is, is the communication what you say. So it's like internal communications, external communications and design and delivery. So and what we used to do was say, you know, you can focus on separate things so if we'd identified that product or service was an area of opportunity, we would put a specialist team within that to be able to design on new product development or maximize something that was going well and be able to filter out those that were not doing well. Typically, we spend a lot of time on the service orientation and helping customers identify what the weakest link was. I mean, typically with five star hotels for example, where everything like a Georgian house facade, you know, on the outside was absolutely wonderful. But the minute you opened the door into the kitchen or you go into their bathrooms which were not as good as the luxurious bars and restaurants that they put on, you know, you were instantly defined, the magic bubble was broken. So we're saying would help them identify those things like that, so that their standards were completely raised and consistent and there are so many exams. Anyway, the doughnut is just one of those tools, you can get more complicated but it works, you know in processes and systems. Typically in large organizations, the blocks would be in that, you know, some bureaucratic holder or a bottleneck in a system that prevented them from delivering a key service efficiently and we would go through and bring in specialists process engineers who would go through a stepwise gap analysis with literally past or wall now you can do it digitally with key questions to identify inefficiencies and blockages in the process and you know now there's whole, you know, lean agile systems bought in from the computer programming world that can help identify those things really quickly. So, but recognizing the right questions to ask around those that delivery doughnut is the power of that tool and dividing and conquering and spreading them out and making sure that you're doing things simultaneously. It's not just one after the other, the delivery phase is multiple, simultaneous expansion against what it is that you're trying to deliver.
Arek Dvornechuck: Right? Because yeah and as you mentioned you know, about the customer perception is the sum of all their associations, right. So with and experiences with the brand so that's why we need to deliver it through different you know outputs, consistent experience, as you gave us this example with the bathrooms in these five star hotel, right, so that we can create actually that desirable perception, right? Okay, so as we are approaching the end of our interview, please let us know either for entrepreneurs who want to work with you, how to find more about you or for you know creative professionals like myself want to learn more from you and of course, I'm gonna include a link to your book in the description box.
Peter Wilken: That's very kind, thank you. Well, what I'm doing Arek is I'm kind of moving more into professional speaking, which is what I used to do, so people can find me on my speaker website, which is Peter Wilken. If I can spell, P, E, T, E, R, W, I, L, K, E, N.com (peterwilken.com) if you can put that out for your business, you can find everything there, there's a link to the book and there's a link to my consulting business dolphin and But typically, that's what I'm doing now is kind of getting much more into the speaker trail and I talk about creative thinking in general and how you can use that to manage change and unpredictability and uncertainty in particularly in relation to building brands because the problem most people I'm finding a dealing with at the moment is you have CEO’s and their leadership teams, trying to build brands in a world that is incredibly unpredictable, constantly changing but looking for ways in which to do that you still need to move forward into the future and I think change can either be fearful or very exciting and it can present many opportunities as well as threats and we know we've just lived through, you know, the first global pandemic in a century and most people's worlds have changed, turned upside down but the reality is, some people have benefited enormously from this, you know, zoom itself, you know, from 20 million to 200 million months, you know, other people surface elite, unfortunately wonderful thing but delivering a live event under a tarpaulin, you know, dead in a year from a one and a half billion dollar company and that's the level of uncertainty and unpredictability we're dealing with. So I talk about embracing change and using all of these tools for brand builders and helping guide them and then and I work with a team with a small number of clients, you know, maybe half a dozen clients a year but I can spend good quality time that are a good fit for them and most importantly, a good fit for me, so I really appreciate it. So that's how you do it, you can find it all on my website Peterwilken W, I, L, K, E, N.com (Peterwilken.com)
Arek Dvornechuck: Sure, I'm going to include those links in the description box and thanks for taking the time to come on our showAnd yeah for you guys if you want to learn more, I invite you to check out the book and check out Peter’s website. I'm gonna include those links in the description. So yeah, as you mentioned during this pandemic, you know and that's the reason why you want to build a stronger bands because stronger bands, they're gonna survive because they have substance right. So yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and sharing with us some of your tips.
Peter Wilken: Thank you. It's a real pleasure and I'm really chuffed that you enjoy the book and like I said your clients should feel confident that you really do your homework on this. I can see you're one of these guys that mark a book, I should send you a clean copy.
Arek Dvornechuck: So thanks for tuning in and if you've enjoyed this episode ofbranding podcast, follow me on social media for more tips on branding, strategy and designfrom ebaqdesign. I'll see you in the next one.
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