*PS. Below you will find an auto-generated transcript of this episode.
Arek Dvornechuck: What's up branding experts? Arek here at ebaqdesign and welcome to On Branding Podcast. And today my guest is Mark Miller and Ted Vaughn. So Mark leads a Brand Strategy and Marketing Transformation at HistoricAgency, which is a brand strategy shop, helping purpose driven organizations to build brands that matter through culture, marketing and design and Ted leads, Client Transformation at HistoricAgency. And he specializes in executive leadership, brand development and strategic clarity. So Mark and Ted have led nearly a hundred rebrands together at historic agency. And they also co-author the book Culture Built My Brand, which is the book right here. And they basically documented their experience in brand building in this book. So we are going to talk about the content of this book. Hello, Mark and Ted. Thanks for joining us on this podcast.
Ted Vaughn: Yeah. Thanks for having us, great to be here.
Arek Dvornechuck: Thank you. So I wanted to start with the basics. So you've got a lot of experience in, running successful rebranding projects, right? And, clients come to you with different brand problems. Like our customer experience is broken. We've got height, employee turnover, or our marketing isn't working, isn't driving enough traffic, but as you both noticed, the real reason is really the brand itself is the culture that underlies the brand, right? so in the first chapter of your book, you explain why culture is so important to brand building. So I just wanted to start off with, uh, some basics and explain to, you know, maybe you can guys explain to, to our listeners, what is culture and why it is so important when it comes to brand building?
1. What is brand culture?
Ted Vaughn: Well, from the very beginning of our, um, agency culture was the critical pillar of brand. We talked about it from day one. It opened a lot of doors and closed a lot of deals, but we didn't really know how to service culture as an extension of our brand work. And, you know, it was really an experience of our own organizational culture combined with multiple experiences with brands we were serving and walking alongside and just observing in, in popular culture that I think began to equip us to know how to address culture. But I think at the start to your, to your question, culture in the book is company culture, right? Culture is one of those big, I think, blurry words. And we want to, from the very beginning, just focus on organizational culture, the people that are housed together on mission with you to accomplish something, the culture of that working dynamic is the single most important aspect of any brand because how those people behave, the ways they make decisions, the way in which they engage in, in their work and engage the customer is gonna matter more than any logo or website or product that you create. We've always known that in the back of our mind, but I think our journey over the last eight years has brought us to a place of understanding that at a level of depth that allowed us to write this book and really begin to engage our customers more effectively and more holistically.
Mark Miller: I think, you know, the tipping point for us to write the book was we just kept seeing this pattern of companies. We implement strategies similar to the ones that you talk about on your blog. Some clients would grow a hundred X and others would barely make it out of the cage with the brand, or they would stumble, or the rebrand wouldn't see the data of light. Right? And so what we noticed was the pattern of the internal culture are starting to devour itself, right? The way people behaved the, you know, we want to be innovative, but our risk tolerance is really low. And we don't, you know, we talk back bad about each other behind each other's facts and all these inappropriate or unhealthy behaviors that just made it impossible for the brand to succeed and implementation. And so that's kind of how we got to, to the point of the writing, the book.
Arek Dvornechuck: I see. That makes sense. So what is really interesting, I want to show this to the listeners. So you were talking about that it's really that brands fail because of their logo or visual. So even marketing strategy is because the internal culture eat their brands away, right? So that's for our listeners. It's very clever book cover right here. It says culture eight, my brand it's crossed off culture, built my brand, right? So that's the premise of the book. So since we understand more or less what culture is, and we are on the same page here, and I wanted to spend a couple of minutes going through a few chapters of your book, just giving like a high level overview to our listeners. So, so that if they're interested, they can just learn more by checking out your book, right? So in the next chapter, you talk about principles and here you guys explain why is that just listing core values, one, do the job. So can you talk to us a bit about why are those behavior based principles are so important and how to turn, you know, regular values that we all know how to develop into those more actionable principles?
Ted Vaughn: You know, over, over the years of corporate company, culture values have been a pretty core element of any organization, but they've grown so blurry and they've grown so innocuous that while most brands have them in our experience, you know, 80% of the time, they are nice ideas that don't shape behavior, that don't actually change the way people behave. And that leads to brand gaps like Enron, where you have values of authenticity and integrity, not authenticity, integrity, carved etched into the marble that people walk past every day. But many of those staff are still in prison for a lack of integrity. Mm-hmm. And while that's the classic example, that gap plays out in organizations small and large, and it become is a huge problem for brands because they have things they say, and they espouse, but their people don't embrace. And that gap is seen and felt and known. And it leads to a sense of betrayal. And a lot of times the customer won't articulate it or see it or, or sense it, but they feel it and they know it, and it leads them to no longer engage or trust the brand. So principles are either a way of kind of re casting your values, get rid of values, values, or old school, recast them as principles, or if you have values and the values are important, put some sub bullets under those values of behaviors, of actionable, clear behaviors that everybody in your brand can be held accountable to following. So that you're actually as a company behaving in a way that supports the values that you
Mark Miller: Espouse and, and a modern example, uh, would be like Uber, right? When Uber started to implode the experience for the customer was that as well, right with there was, you know, search pricing when it was inappropriate and, you know, drivers weren't being taken care of and delays and all kinds of inappropriate behavior that was happening at the consumer level was also happening at the corporate level. Right. And so really understanding how to do your employees are behaving, you know, on brand related to your purpose related to your mission as an organization, um, is really rare. And so that's why we, we define principles as the law, that separates organizations who say they're about something, but really don't live it out. And the ones that actually execute at a, in a way that that starts attracting talents and customers.
Arek Dvornechuck: Right. So it all makes sense. So some of the key takeaways from this part, so is about bridging that gap, right? It's not about just listing your core values, it's about, you know, making them actionable and then rewarding your, your team for implementing them for putting them into action. Right, right. Um, okay. So in the next chapter, we talk about architecture. What you mean by that is all organizational systems and structures, right. That exist internally. So it's basically the whole ecosystem, right? So can you talk to us a bit, what kind of structures can we create to support our team, to deliver on that brand promise?
Ted Vaughn: So the book talks about architecture because we've never found an architect to just care about the internal systems. They're all designed and built in a way to support a work of art that is contextual and built for purpose built to match the environment it's in. And we think here HR systems and structure as well, their compensation hiring processes, how you supervise all of those systems, that entire structure needs to be intentionally designed in a way that matches the internal culture that you want to create. And the external reality of your branded market. And there, when you start to really look for creatively at how systems and structures can be designed to support people in creative ways, it's infinite the amount of ways that you can design your systems and structures to help further your brand value and, and what your brand is about HR. Shouldn't just be there or not there healthy, not healthy HR or organizational architecture should be a way of furthering your unique brand value.
Mark Miller: Yeah. So just a couple examples of that. Yeah. Like historic agency, you know, one of our, um, principles is people centered. And so not only do we take that approach in our design thinking and how we interact with clients, but that's also the, our internal approach. So just our, our company expense report system, right? You, you get a credit card and our credit card is great because that card texts you when you make a purchase and you could take a photo of the receipt and, um, respond to that text message and your expense report is basically done. Um, mm-hmm, if we weren't people centered, we might have an expense report that requires multiple hours worth of work and hunting down receipts and scanning them and uploading them to some Microsoft system that then has to get approved by somebody. And there's all these hoops to jump through. So that's one example how a system can be designed in a way that that makes people's lives a little bit easier that understands the work that they have to do. Isn't expense reports, but it's not working for accounting. It's actually getting their work done right as designers or copywriters or whatever it might be. Another great example is like Ted was saying is HR. And if you want to be innovative and your team needs deep work or deep focused thinking work, or highly collaborative work, but you don't create an environment in which that can happen. You really don't value innovation, right? You, you say you do becomes that word on the wall. And if you do value those things, then how are you creating an environment where collaboration happens or people have space for deep focused work. So that that's one way to look at it, how you hire people. Another great example would be Menlo innovations to software engineering firm, but they have, uh, programmers that work in pairs. So one computer, one keyboard, one monitor for two programmers, which is highly unique. And, and the way they, the reason they do that is it, it eliminates errors. One person can look over the other person's shoulders. So how they interview isn't like, we'll just post a job on LinkedIn and interview people. And, uh, their C CEO says, interviews are, are kind of just everyone lying until they get, get a, get the position. Um, and so what they do is they actually bring two people in at a time and they make them work together to solve a problem. And someone watches them and sees how they interact. Who's a leader, who's a follower. What kind of act, you know, do they understand problem solving in a collaborative format, all that. And so their hiring process reflects the brand and the culture they want to build. And so those are examples of how you can customize the structure, the systems inside your organization to really elevate the brand purposes and values of Ben pillars of your brain.
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah. These are great examples. It totally makes sense. And I think we can all relate to that, you know, especially to those like creating an ecosystem that would make a team members' lives easier, not harder to support their work. And, uh, as you just mentioned, those examples of those receives and stuff like that, I can definitely relate to some of, of those things. So let's talk about the next important thing you, you talk about is rituals. So as a name suggests, it's all about rituals, right? It's all about those activities that would engage employees and, and the whole team and create a sense of joy and excitement as you say in your book, right? So which in turn will drive more brand success, right? If the team is happy and is excited, it will only benefit brand success. So can you guys talk to us a bit about those rituals and perhaps give us some examples so we can understand this concept.
Ted Vaughn: Any brand that has more than two people, uh, employed has rituals. Those rituals might just be meetings. They might be things that are perfunctory or just, you know, man type things, but, but they are rituals. They're patterns of behavior that lead to engagement. Mm-hmm we believe the best rituals are things that come up organically where people are so in love with an aspect of your brand or a brand value or something about your brand, that they begin doing things organically that reflect your brand value. And they happen often side of the purview of senior leadership, because, and again, in the book, we give examples because the, the best rituals are things that your people design and do independent of your hierarchical control, like calling meetings or doing scavenger hunts or, or whatever that might be.
Mark Miller: Yeah. And so if you think about it going back, and the reason we call these layers to what marque culture, right? The idea of a culture being a big sign that attracts customers and talent, uh, for your brand is that when people start behaving on brand, not just doing what they're supposed to be doing, but behaving on brand as employees, uh, they start, as Ted said, wanting to do activities that elevate that brand and experience that brand. Now you could, you could do top down activities. And so, but what we found is the more powerful ones are the ones that are, are grassroots, right? And so the example we gave in the book next, your computer on mobile device, uh, you can Google the NASA, pumpkin carving contest and find examples, but that's a, an example of a ritual every year, NASA does, they don't pay for it. The engineers, you know, use their own time, their own money. And they hold this competition where they carve pumpkins. And it's, you know, some of them actually, you know, lift off like rockets and some of them are elaborate set pieces. Uh, some of them are robotic and it's a way for them to express creativity in their engineering, that they may not be able to do every day, but that when a mission goes wrong and there's a problem in space, they have to use that creativity to solve the problems because there's limited resource limited time. And so that's a way that, um, they've created a ritual and, you know, that's obviously an extreme example with rocket scientists for us. Uh, one of our principles is be the fun. And so we want people to own having fun at work. And it's not a cruise ship director, someone telling you, Hey, this is when we're gonna, this is mandatory, happy hour, everyone come. And so someone came the, I came up with the idea of, we want to get to know our remote employees a little bit better. Let's do a music club where everyone submits an album once a week, or one person submits an album every week. And we listen to it as a team while we're working, and then we review and give each other feedback. And it gives us a way to understand somebody that's in a different context, text are in a better way and that's taken off. And we do that every work every week. And we make time for that ritual so that people can have fun listening to music and understanding each other better as team members.
Arek Dvornechuck: Right. These are great examples. So again, rituals just about, you know, celebrating together something, building activities, as you mentioned with music, it, something about friendly competition as well. Right. And you give us a lot of examples in the book. So if you guys wanna learn more about that, I recommend you check out the book. So I just wanted to, uh, go to a few more, uh, chapters to, to just help our listeners understand cuz the book really covers all those aspects of building a brand culture in depth that you also give us, uh, pretty comprehensive worksheets, which is really awesome. So it's very practical. I just wanted to get it out there for our listeners. We're interested in that. So, and the next chapter is about lore and which is about story that, uh, circulate in the organization, right? And this could be something positive or something negative. So in your book, you give us some tips on how to turn those negative stories in how to address them and, and how to turn them into something positive. So perhaps you could, uh, guys give us some examples of what are some of the good or bad laws and how to address them, how to fix those negative ones.
Ted Vaughn: So usually lore is attached to a person, maybe it's somebody who is caught doing something, you know, embarrassing or crazy. And that becomes a story that echoes through the hallways. Maybe it's a senior leader who behaves in such an extravagant or out of control way that they get, you know, stereotyped. And they're these stories of incidences that, and as senior leaders, right, we often don't know those stories because they operate at a way that we're kind of insulated from or the, the last thing people are gonna do or tell us the story. Those can become cancers in any brand because they perpetuated negative dimension of the brand that may or may not be true, but it's not helpful. Positive lore is when you've got great stories, stories of your founder. We talk about one of the fed founder of Patagonia and how a positive story shaped a culture that continues stories continue to echo through the hallways of Patagonia today about Yvonne shard. I think the, the first question for any senior leader is what are the stories that are being to hold that I might not be aware of and how can I in a gentle kind way find out and begin to understand what people are actually saying, what the stories actually are. And then are there ways to plant and tell positive stories that really present the brand in a way that is helpful and perpetuate the brand's, uh, true value? My, I probably have some good examples of that.
Mark Miller: Yeah. So, um, kind of there's we, I think we call in the book a mining for, for Laura, where we, where as leaders, um, once you become a leader and that could be a context of you on a team or in a C-suite, uh, people aren't gonna tell you the truth anymore. <laugh> like, no matter how hard you want them to. Uh, so you have to, to build the bridge, cuz you're the one with the authority, um, in power and influence. So you have to bridge, build a bridge to them. And so you need to be proactively asking about, you know, how things are going, uh, what people are feeling, what are they hearing? And one way to, to do that is really the, or the, at least the example I, I have of doing it at historic is that when I onboard a new employee, I make it really clear. I go through a, a, a user guide that I wrote for myself and it's about how I work and my default modes good and bad. So here are all my good behaviors. Here are all my bad behaviors. And so I want you to call me out on those things, right? So I'm building trust by allowing someone to speak into my life and speak into my leadership. And then I ask them questions, um, in our one-on-ones to really mine the stuff out of what's going on. Right. So I can understand, okay, is it something with me? Is it something with the organization? Uh, and that's a way to find stories that may be negatively impacting. Usually the things that are positive people will start talking about and you'll hear about out it right away, but they could be, you know, positive or can take shape in a bunch of different formats. And we, we talk about that in the book. Um, but it's story is so powerful when it comes to building your brand and whether it's a founder story or something that the organization did, that was, um, super radically crazy, right? Like red bull has a bunch of stories <laugh> of lore, uh, for their brand, right from their founding and, and how they would crumple up cans and, and, and distribute them and trash cans in the middle of the night, all over London to try to get people to think that people were partying in the middle of the night and drinking red bull, even though they were empty cans, um, to, you know, launching someone out of a balloon in the stratosphere down to earth, like they have all these great stories about trying to build their brand. Right. And so think about your organization, what are those opportunities? And again, the lore is it needs to empower brand. So it needs to be, it can't just be like, oh, we, we helped raise a bunch of money for a charity. That could be great, but how is it elevating your brand? Right? So that your customers and employees are more focused on who you are and, and what your differentiators are. So that those are just some examples of how to mine for it. And for us, we've actually found out that we had negative lore because of some staffing changes that we may, and we had to, you know, address it in a team and, and clarify why those changes were made and focus on the positive. So that's how you would take something that's negative and say, okay, this is the, what was learned from that experience and how we're moving forward as an organization to build positive. And everyone now looks back at that moment and they even kind of give it its own unique name, but, uh, and we won't get into that, but they know that that is a pivotal point in our organization's shift in culture. And what allows them to do what they can do today is because of this, this thing that happened in the past. So you can, you can, uh, rewrite the story if you know what it is, if you're willing as a leader to learn from it and the brand willing to change, if it needs to.
Arek Dvornechuck: Okay. Some of my key takeaways. So lore showcase your, your culture at its best or at it's worst. Basically those stories that people tell behind your back. So you should be proactive. As you mentioned, you should them, of course, you cannot control everything, but you can others, the toxic ones, as we said, you can either admit to it and try to rewrite this story with something positive. So basically try to counteract this a negative story and, and try to fix it. Right?
Ted Vaughn: Yeah. I think that's a theme in this entire book. Everything we're talking about is not rocket science. It's not like this breakthrough idea that nobody ever considered. Oh my gosh. People are telling stories of my company. I think what we're challenging people to do is actually take these aspects of your culture seriously, because if you leverage them for good, if you refocus them or at worst, Nere the negative, then your brand's gonna be in a healthier place. And, and so Essent, what we're saying is don't underestimate the power of your culture to be a power for good or a power for bad. Take it seriously. And here are ways to take it seriously. Right. I mean, it just, the theme is intention effort. Just take, take the time to do this intentionally, you know?
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah. You encourage us to actually pay attention to those things. Yeah. And it makes all sense because when you think about brand, you know, what is a brand is actually what people think about you when you are not dead. Right. It's that perception for the most part. Right. So the culture is a big part of that. Right? So, and the stories we tell, for example, so one, one of those things that we can work with to try to, you know, influence that culture and, and build a strong culture. Right. So, and a strong brand. Ultimately. So another thing you talk about in your book is vocabulary. So obviously it's about, you know, words and phrases that that would inspire our team, uh, our people to, to produce better results. So can you talk to us a bit about that?
Ted Vaughn: You know, these layers, all permeate, one another, I'm sure you're starting to see that, right. So yeah, your principles should it, it will ultimately inform positive stories or ideally reflect founders stories. Your architecture should to high back to your principles, which should reflect your values. If you have those well, vocabulary really is kind of the ultimate layer that permeates all of these, essentially it's coming up with language that allows your culture to be more sticky because there are phrases or words that help people understand more, more fast, more fast, more quickly. I don't know is that I, you say that anyways, the, the, the language, you know, words create worlds. And by having a sticky Fraser idea, it instantly triggers in people. Oh, that's right. That's our value. So it might be that your principle is phrased in a sticky way. It could be that one of those funny founders stories has kind of a three word phrase that points to it. It could be. And in the book we tell a lot about Netflix and a lot of the great sticky vocabulary words they've developed over the years, that aren't really meant for the external customer. They're just internal culture shaping terms. But the minute you say, 'em the people who are on staff know exactly what that means. Mark, you've got a couple of examples of
Mark Miller: That. Yeah. So one is sun shining. So Netflix, um, they wanna, they wanna end, they move fast and learn from their mistakes. So when you make a mistake, you have to share it with the team and what you're learnings and this isn't to demotivate people and shame them. It's more, let's, let's learn from this person so that we don't make the same mistakes as a team, and we can keep innovating. Right. And, um, uh, the one who made the biggest mistakes is Reid STS. I think he's co CEO now, or chairman, but founder of Netflix. And that's when he decided to make Quickster the DVD mailing service and spin it off as a separate company from the streaming service. And, you know, he lost 40% of his stock valuation, I think, in a week. And so he had to, you know, apologize for that, you know, share his learnings. And, and so has come out at, and sun shining is one thing from Netflix. Another phrase that they use is the keeper test, which is the idea that if you're in a, a manager and you have a team member, cuz they, they want top performers in every position. So if someone were to quit your team, uh, what would you do to keep them? And if the answer is nothing, then you're supposed to fire them and leave that position open for an a player. So those are a couple ones, but there's also words that we kind of use that can, um, have different meanings to people that aren't clearly defined and you need to watch out for those and then either define them or remove them from the team's vocabulary. So in our example, we used the word hustle a lot. Uh, when we first started and our intent wasn't work all the time, it was more work smarter, um, not harder and, you know, be driven and everyone had their own opinion of the word hustle and it started to create an unhealthy culture. And so we had to address that by redefining it and slowly removing it from our vocabulary. So it wasn't as, as prominent as it once was, um, because it was having a negative impact on our culture. So words, words, um, uh, can create worlds that people live in. And so we wanna be intentional about the language we're using. Um, just like you would be intentional about messaging to a customer. You wanna be intentional about messaging to your, your team so that they can be on brand. And
Ted Vaughn: In some ways these layers are linear. Um, often what we find is brands that take their values or principles, seriously begin to have words that be come more significant or helpful than others. And those words now eventually become sticky vocabulary terms, but it plays out over 12 to 18 months, right? So, you know, it's not like you need to launch with a new vocabulary lexicon for your staff tomorrow. Sometimes the best sticky terms are the ones that bubble up from your people because they're so invested in, in your brand, you know, and that's, that's another theme by having people who are invested and, and clear and passionate about your brand. They're gonna create stories and rituals and language that you can now adopt and leverage to keep your brand healthy and going forward
Arek Dvornechuck: Mm-hmm and adjust and, uh, and refine those. Okay. So yeah, it all makes sense. And so, yeah, as you said, words can create worlds and words are important, so you should pay attention to those. And as the last one, you talk about artifacts. So it's all about look and feel, right? So as you said, these things overlap and they complement each other. So can you give us some examples of what kind of artifacts you have in mind? What can we create to support our culture?
Mark Miller: Yeah. So artifacts, that's the fun part for anyone who's a designer listening or creatives, um, that's where you get to start building the tangible things. And a lot of times that looks like, you know, on brand swag at a company store or something, um, that, uh, you know, business cards or shirts or something like that,
Ted Vaughn: Or both covers both covers covers. Yeah.
Mark Miller: One of the things, um, that, uh, we like what, we've, what we saw in top performing brands, um, both in the ones that we worked with and the ones that we did research on was that they had implemented, um, various forms of artifacts that, that again, pointed their team back to what is what the brand was about so that they could, they could do their work in a way that is gonna move the brand forward. And so some of that was like keep, has, which used to be Infusionsoft has a AstroTurf that looks like, um, a football field is like half, half size, I think. And even has a goal post, I think on one end. Uh, and they hold their team meetings there. And the reason they do that is that they want to remind everyone the value of leaving it all in the field. So they want their team to, to leave, you know, leave it all in the field, work on hard, put out your best ideas, you know, so that you can look back and say, I, I put it all in the field. And so that's a reminder, every time you walk past it, you're reminded of that value. Every time you have a staff meeting, you're reminded of that value, right? And that's what we call a, a environmental artifact, you know, one where you're creating an environment for your team. And so that could be designed on the wall that could, you know, football field in your office, that that's the case. Then there's we go through the book and list out different types of artifacts that you, you can create. But the, the thinking here is to be creative, not just on brand, but be creative in ways that help empower people to operate and work on brand. Right? So it's not necessarily about the logo as it is. Uh, like a lot of things that we do for our clients is create custom decks of cards that communicate the value or process or, or different tool sets that they need to use internally to keep them focused on brand and on the values and our principles and how they operate as, as team members. So there's lots of different ways, um, are in that you can implement artifacts in different shapes. Um, so,
Arek Dvornechuck: So yeah, you divide them into a few categories in your book. So just some of my key takeaways for our listeners. So basically it's all about those tangible, visible objects, right? And as you said, they work as reminders to the team, to, to our people, you know, about our principles and what's important for us and, and how to build that culture. So it could be swag, it could be pins, it could be, you know, new hire, welcome kids name, place, or badges decks of card, as you mentioned, right. Annual journals, some awards. And also, as you mentioned, you know, war art, mores, some spatial artifacts, right. Um, micro, micro museums, library is phone booths for personal calls and, you know, meeting rooms and things like that. Okay. So that's great. We gave you guys high level overview, but the book is really go mark and Ted go into depth into, you know, how to build your brand culture step by step. And then you can download and actually you are provided with worksheets.
Mark Miller: Yeah we included the tools that, um, we use with our clients, um, to help them
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah, which is really, really, I, I love this because it's very practical. I started filling out these worksheets, of course there's, uh, I'm not done yet. Yeah. So it's very, very practical. I just wanted to, to put it out there because you know, some books are just, uh, uh, they are great books about theory, but you know, it's, sometimes it's hard to put it into practice, but this is very practical book with a lot of examples and a lot of, you know, step by step processes and worksheets. So, okay. So as we are approaching the end of our interview, I just wanted to ask guys, you know, how to get in touch with you for people who just wanna learn more about you and about your work. Obviously I'm going to link the book in a description box, but how to get in touch with you, either for clients or people who just wanna learn more about your work.
Mark Miller: Mm-hmm and you can hit me up on LinkedIn, mark, Michael Miller on LinkedIn. And it's primarily where I'm at.
Ted Vaughn: And I think we still have a website for the book, right? Mark?
Mark Miller: Yeah. And oh yeah. culturebuiltmybrand.com. That's where you can get a book, get the tools, and learn more.
Arek Dvornechuck: Yeah. Again, so yeah, so probably the best way to find more about you is to go to the website. Right. culturebuiltmybrand.com. Okay. Awesome, thanks Mark and Ted for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
Ted Vaughn: I love doing it. Thanks for having us a lot of fun. Thanks for the promotion of the book.
Arek Dvornechuck: Thank you. Bye.
Arek Dvornechuck is a strategist and designer who helps brands grow by crafting distinctive brand identities, backed by strategy. Need help with your project?—Get in touch
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